-- card: 24098 from stack: in -- bmap block id: 17105 -- flags: 0000 -- background id: 23046 -- name: Responses2 -- part 14 (field) -- low flags: 01 -- high flags: 0002 -- rect: left=223 top=42 right=70 bottom=354 -- title width / last selected line: 0 -- icon id / first selected line: 0 / 0 -- text alignment: 1 -- font id: 4 -- text size: 9 -- style flags: 0 -- line height: 12 -- part name: -- part 8 (button) -- low flags: 00 -- high flags: 8000 -- rect: left=360 top=42 right=58 bottom=415 -- title width / last selected line: 0 -- icon id / first selected line: 0 / 0 -- text alignment: 1 -- font id: 0 -- text size: 12 -- style flags: 0 -- line height: 16 -- part name: Pause ----- HyperTalk script ----- on mouseUp get short name of cd btn id 8 if it is "Pause" then set name of cd btn id 8 to "Resume" set name of cd btn id 17 to "Resume" else if it is "Resume" then set name of cd btn id 8 to "Pause" set name of cd btn id 17 to "Pause" end if end if end mouseUp -- part 16 (button) -- low flags: 00 -- high flags: 0000 -- rect: left=0 top=0 right=75 bottom=494 -- title width / last selected line: 0 -- icon id / first selected line: 0 / 0 -- text alignment: 1 -- font id: 3 -- text size: 9 -- style flags: 256 -- line height: 12 -- part name: ----- HyperTalk script ----- on mouseDown Beep hide menuBar end mouseDown -- part 1 (button) -- low flags: 00 -- high flags: 8000 -- rect: left=51 top=38 right=54 bottom=131 -- title width / last selected line: 0 -- icon id / first selected line: 0 / 0 -- text alignment: 1 -- font id: 4 -- text size: 9 -- style flags: 0 -- line height: 12 -- part name: HANG UP -- part 2 (button) -- low flags: 00 -- high flags: 0000 -- rect: left=134 top=38 right=54 bottom=217 -- title width / last selected line: 0 -- icon id / first selected line: 0 / 0 -- text alignment: 1 -- font id: 4 -- text size: 9 -- style flags: 0 -- line height: 12 -- part name: MacLodge 3 -- part 6 (button) -- low flags: 00 -- high flags: 8000 -- rect: left=50 top=56 right=72 bottom=130 -- title width / last selected line: 0 -- icon id / first selected line: 0 / 0 -- text alignment: 1 -- font id: 4 -- text size: 9 -- style flags: 0 -- line height: 12 -- part name: MacLodge 1 -- part 7 (button) -- low flags: 00 -- high flags: 8000 -- rect: left=133 top=56 right=72 bottom=217 -- title width / last selected line: 0 -- icon id / first selected line: 0 / 0 -- text alignment: 1 -- font id: 4 -- text size: 9 -- style flags: 0 -- line height: 12 -- part name: MacLodge 2 -- part 4 (button) -- low flags: 00 -- high flags: 2000 -- rect: left=1 top=37 right=74 bottom=49 -- title width / last selected line: 0 -- icon id / first selected line: 0 / 0 -- text alignment: 1 -- font id: 4 -- text size: 9 -- style flags: 0 -- line height: 12 -- part name: Passing notes response -- part 12 (button) -- low flags: 00 -- high flags: 0000 -- rect: left=14 top=2 right=17 bottom=297 -- title width / last selected line: 0 -- icon id / first selected line: 0 / 0 -- text alignment: 1 -- font id: 0 -- text size: 12 -- style flags: 0 -- line height: 16 -- part name: File Edit Service Local Customize ----- HyperTalk script ----- on mouseDown show menuBar end mouseDown -- part 13 (button) -- low flags: 00 -- high flags: 0000 -- rect: left=10 top=22 right=34 bottom=22 -- title width / last selected line: 0 -- icon id / first selected line: 23922 / 23922 -- text alignment: 1 -- font id: 4 -- text size: 9 -- style flags: 0 -- line height: 12 -- part name: QuitMe -- part 3 (button) -- low flags: 00 -- high flags: 8000 -- rect: left=0 top=326 right=342 bottom=512 -- title width / last selected line: 0 -- icon id / first selected line: 0 / 0 -- text alignment: 1 -- font id: 4 -- text size: 9 -- style flags: 0 -- line height: 12 -- part name: ----- HyperTalk script ----- on mouseDown Beep end mouseDown -- part 17 (button) -- low flags: 00 -- high flags: 2000 -- rect: left=360 top=42 right=70 bottom=415 -- title width / last selected line: 0 -- icon id / first selected line: 0 / 0 -- text alignment: 1 -- font id: 4 -- text size: 9 -- style flags: 0 -- line height: 12 -- part name: Pause -- part 18 (button) -- low flags: 80 -- high flags: 0000 -- rect: left=491 top=0 right=37 bottom=512 -- title width / last selected line: 0 -- icon id / first selected line: 0 / 0 -- text alignment: 1 -- font id: 4 -- text size: 9 -- style flags: 0 -- line height: 12 -- part name: ----- HyperTalk script ----- on mouseDown Beep end mouseDown -- part 19 (button) -- low flags: 00 -- high flags: 0000 -- rect: left=223 top=42 right=70 bottom=354 -- title width / last selected line: 0 -- icon id / first selected line: 0 / 0 -- text alignment: 1 -- font id: 4 -- text size: 9 -- style flags: 0 -- line height: 12 -- part name: ----- HyperTalk script ----- on mouseDown global modTemp set hilite of target to true put empty into BkgndNO repeat with i = 2 to number of bg flds if visible of bg fld i is true then put i into BkgndNO exit repeat end if end repeat if BkgndNo is not empty then set lockScreen to true put cantmodify of this stack into modTemp set cantmodify of this stack to false click at loc of bg fld BkgndNO doMenu "Text Style..." put textheight of bg fld BkgndNO into tHt put "Speed " &tHt &"-" & (i-1) &"-" &textSize of bg fld BkgndNO & "-" &textFont of bg fld BkgndNO into line 2 of cd fld id 14 set cantmodify of this stack to modTemp else end if set hilite of target to false end mouseDown -- part 21 (button) -- low flags: 00 -- high flags: 2000 -- rect: left=469 top=43 right=67 bottom=493 -- title width / last selected line: 0 -- icon id / first selected line: 28901 / 28901 -- text alignment: 1 -- font id: 0 -- text size: 12 -- style flags: 0 -- line height: 16 -- part name: ? ----- HyperTalk script ----- on mouseUp popUp 2 show cd btn id 31 end mouseUp -- part 24 (button) -- low flags: 00 -- high flags: 0000 -- rect: left=14 top=2 right=17 bottom=31 -- title width / last selected line: 0 -- icon id / first selected line: 0 / 0 -- text alignment: 1 -- font id: 0 -- text size: 12 -- style flags: 0 -- line height: 16 -- part name: Show menubar ----- HyperTalk script ----- on mouseDown beep Show menuBar set userlevel to 5 end mouseDown -- part 26 (button) -- low flags: 00 -- high flags: 2000 -- rect: left=15 top=51 right=72 bottom=36 -- title width / last selected line: 0 -- icon id / first selected line: 6720 / 6720 -- text alignment: 1 -- font id: 4 -- text size: 9 -- style flags: 0 -- line height: 12 -- part name: Passing notes response -- part 28 (button) -- low flags: 00 -- high flags: 8001 -- rect: left=137 top=39 right=54 bottom=211 -- title width / last selected line: 0 -- icon id / first selected line: 0 / 0 -- text alignment: 1 -- font id: 4 -- text size: 9 -- style flags: 0 -- line height: 12 -- part name: Respond ----- HyperTalk script ----- on mouseUp if optionKey() is down then set visible of bg fld 4 to not visible of bg fld 4 set scroll of bg fld 4 to 0 else global modTemp, PendState set cursor to 4 openCard answer "Add an offline " "e &"Passing Notes" "e &" comment?" with "Just Read" or "Yes" or "No" if it is "Yes" then if cantmodify of this stack is false then ask "User Name?" if it is "Cancel" or it is empty then beep exit MouseUp else set cursor to 4 put cantmodify of this stack into modTemp set cantmodify of this stack to false put it into responDee repeat with i = 1 to length of responDee -- Goodman get the charToNum of char i of responDee if it ≥ 97 and it ≤ 122 then subtract 32 from it put the numToChar of it into char i of responDee end if end repeat put random (100000) into RanNo put "Enter your comments into this field, then click on one of" &"the buttons above." &return &"Click on SEND to add your comment to the message base." &return &"Click on PAUSE if you want to refer back to Passing Notes and then continue" &return &" writing this message. Leaving the stack will CANCEL this entry." &return &"Click on CANCEL if you choose to not post a message. The current entry will be" &return &" deleted." &return &return &"Msg. #" & RanNo &" in **General news** Posted on " &the short date &" at " &the long time &return &"To: BRIAN THOMAS From: " &responDee &" (offline)" &return &"Subject: Passing Notes" &return &return into cd fld 3 lock screen show cd fld 3 repeat with i = 29 to 32 show cd btn id i end repeat unLock Screen put "New Msg" into PendState click at 7, 167 end if else answer "You can't post a comment at this time. Either the stack's" &" cantmodify menu option is checked or it is on a locked disk or CD." end if end if if it is "Just Read" then send mouseUp to cd btn "MacLodge 3" end if end if end mouseUp -- part 20 (field) -- low flags: 83 -- high flags: 0002 -- rect: left=1 top=36 right=342 bottom=510 -- title width / last selected line: 0 -- icon id / first selected line: 0 / 0 -- text alignment: 0 -- font id: 4 -- text size: 9 -- style flags: 0 -- line height: 12 -- part name: Help ----- HyperTalk script ----- on mouseUp lock screen hide target hide cd btn id 31 unlock screen with dissolve end mouseUp -- part 27 (field) -- low flags: 80 -- high flags: 0007 -- rect: left=1 top=35 right=327 bottom=510 -- title width / last selected line: 0 -- icon id / first selected line: 0 / 0 -- text alignment: 0 -- font id: 4 -- text size: 9 -- style flags: 0 -- line height: 12 -- part name: textEntry -- part 31 (button) -- low flags: 80 -- high flags: 0000 -- rect: left=9 top=21 right=35 bottom=23 -- title width / last selected line: 0 -- icon id / first selected line: 23922 / 23922 -- text alignment: 1 -- font id: 4 -- text size: 9 -- style flags: 0 -- line height: 12 -- part name: Hider2 ----- HyperTalk script ----- on mousedown if visible of cd fld id 20 is true then lock screen hide cd fld id 20 unlock screen with dissolve else beep end if end mousedown -- part 32 (button) -- low flags: 80 -- high flags: A002 -- rect: left=172 top=19 right=36 bottom=225 -- title width / last selected line: 0 -- icon id / first selected line: 0 / 0 -- text alignment: 1 -- font id: 4 -- text size: 9 -- style flags: 256 -- line height: 12 -- part name: SEND ----- HyperTalk script ----- on mouseUp global modTemp, PendState set cursor to 4 put cd fld 3 into temp put empty into cd fld 3 put " Saving Message" into line 7 of cd fld 3 delete line 1 to 7 of temp put return before temp put number of lines of temp into temp1 put number of lines of bg fld 4 into temp2 repeat with i = number of lines of bg fld 4 down to 1 if line i of bg fld 4 is empty then else put i + 2into temp3 exit repeat end if end repeat put temp after line temp3 of bg fld 4 put " Message saved" into line 7 of cd fld 3 wait 10 put " Disconnecting" into line 9 of cd fld 3 wait 30 lock screen hide cd fld 3 repeat with i = 29 to 32 hide cd btn id i end repeat put empty into cd fld 3 unLock screen set cantmodify of this stack to modTemp put empty into PendState answer return &"Reconnect and read your just-sent message?" with "Yes" or "No" if it is "Yes" then send mouseUp to cd btn "MacLodge 3" end if end mouseUp -- part 29 (button) -- low flags: 80 -- high flags: A002 -- rect: left=225 top=19 right=36 bottom=278 -- title width / last selected line: 0 -- icon id / first selected line: 0 / 0 -- text alignment: 1 -- font id: 4 -- text size: 9 -- style flags: 256 -- line height: 12 -- part name: PAUSE ----- HyperTalk script ----- on mouseUp global modTemp, PendState Answer "Re-explore Passing Notes before sending message? " &"(Click on the seating chart ICON with the optionKey down " &"to return quickly.)" with "Yes" or "No" if it is "Yes" then set cursor to 4 put "Msg Pending" into PendState set cantmodify of this stack to ModTemp visual zoom in go cd 1 show cd btn id 23 of cd id 24098 else put empty into PendState end if end mouseUp -- part 30 (button) -- low flags: 80 -- high flags: A002 -- rect: left=278 top=19 right=36 bottom=331 -- title width / last selected line: 0 -- icon id / first selected line: 0 / 0 -- text alignment: 1 -- font id: 4 -- text size: 9 -- style flags: 256 -- line height: 12 -- part name: CANCEL ----- HyperTalk script ----- on mouseUp global ModTemp, PendState answer "Cancel this message?" with "Yes" or "No" if it is "Yes" then set cursor to 4 lock screen hide cd fld 3 repeat with i = 29 to 32 hide cd btn id i end repeat put empty into cd fld 3 openCard set cantmodify of this stack to modTemp put empty into PendState end if end mouseUp -- part 23 (button) -- low flags: 80 -- high flags: 8001 -- rect: left=0 top=0 right=342 bottom=512 -- title width / last selected line: 0 -- icon id / first selected line: 0 / 0 -- text alignment: 1 -- font id: 4 -- text size: 12 -- style flags: 0 -- line height: 16 -- part name: Please Wait ----- HyperTalk script ----- on mouseUp go cd 1 end mouseUp -- part contents for background part 4 ----- text ----- ATZ OK ATDT 1-818-RIP-XXXX CONNECT 1200 !!! HOLD DOWN THE OPTION KEY OR CLICK "PAUSE REMOTE" TO SUSPEND TRANSMISSION !!! !!! SUSPEND TRANSMISSION WITH "PAUSE REMOTE" BEFORE HANGING UP !!! Connection made at 1200 baud. Now Open Only in “Passing Notes”! /\ / \ /\ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ /\ / \ /\ / \ / \ /\ /\ \ / \ /\ /\ /\ / \ / \/ \ /\ /\/\ \ / \/\ / \/ \ /\ /\ \ / \/ \ / \/\ / \/ \ / \/ \/\ / Opened \ / \ / Welcome to the \ / \ / Dec.1985 \/ \/ Mac Lodge BBS! \ / \ by \ / \/ \ Dennis Cosio \ / Located in Beautiful \ \ \ / Arcadia, California \ \ Now Open Only in \ / \ \ “Passing Notes” \ / (818) RIP-XXXX \ \ \/ 8-N-1 \ \ / \ \ / \ \ / Sysop:Blake Chattaway \ \ <======= Bulletin Boards =======> Read messages: N>ew since last call F>orward chronologically R>everse chronologically I>ndividually Command (N,F,R,I)? F Searching... Msg. #14588 in **General news** Posted on 05/03/88 at 04:19:48 To: BRIAN THOMAS From: LASER DOLPHIN Subject: Reply To 'Philosophy & Religion' Brian, here is what is wrong with your ideas. You attack evolution, a scientific theory, by putting meaning into it that it does not profess. That sequence in your stack that asks "Evolution" the meaning of life is a load of malarkey. The facts of genetics and of evolution are just that: facts. It is your problem that you read into those facts an untenable meaning of life. You offer only the solution of ignoring the facts and lapsing into a comfortable ignorance or mysticism. Mysticism is baloney, because it is not attached to reality. You attack science without realizing that to do so is to attack reason and the possibility of knowing about the real world around us. Brian, your approach is to rely on subjective, unreliable, special knowledge that is inaccessible to anyone else. Science relies on objective information that is accessible to all. Relying on the mystic is like relying on a crap shoot. It is like reading "Conan the Barbarian" and taking it as truth. This is really the second time I've said this, but I hope that now you know more than that I don't like your stack. Msg. #14633 in **General news** Posted on 05/06/88 at 03: 22:57 To: LASER DOLPHIN From: BRIAN THOMAS Subject: Reply To 'Philosophy & Religion' "The most beautiful and most profound emotion we can experience is the sensation of the mystical. It is the sower of all true science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead.." -Albert Einstein Msg. #19541 in **General news** Posted on 09/12/88 at 22:08:32 To: BRIAN THOMAS From: DROP KICK Subject: ResponseWare Brian, I just got around to downloading Passing Notes - the final version, this afternoon. So I'm calling back to pay my ResponseWare fee, i.e, to give a response. You also said something in there about ATTACK! Actually, although I do disagree with a lot of what the stack says, it is a very well done and thought provoking stack. I'm not too hot on HyperCard in general, but this stack shows that it can be used as an effective way to present an idea. It's beautifully done. You present several arguments as to why "Science doesn't explain us." These arguments are quite distinct. First, there seems to be a general outrage at the notion that we could be explained in materialistic terms. Second, there is the observation that science does not give any final explanations. It merely correlates the future with the past. Third, there is the argument that science merely manipulates symbols, while gliding over the underlying essence of things. In particular, the materialistic explanation of man does not explain his inner life, and is therefore inadequate. Fourth, science, or at least the popular accounts of it, is reductionistic, and you feel that reductionism does violence to reality. You argue that this is supported by the quantum theory. Fifth, and this is brought out somewhat obscurely, mainly in quotes from Barrett, science only reveals partial truths, but we treat them as complete truths, because we are insecure about not understanding things. Where do I start? First, I agree with many of these insights. All scientific truth is partial. And we are merely manipulating symbols in science, rather than grasping the essence of the thing. (I'm not convinced that electrons are "profoundly mysterious" however, and it may be that the description of how they behave is about all you can say about them.) I think you have to draw a clear distinction between science as it is practiced, and science as it is perceived by some philosophers. A lot of the representations of what science implies impress me as caricatures that merely reflect the ignorance of some philosophers and popularizers of science. In particular, when you discuss evolution, you seem to be relying heavily on Richard Dawkins' "The Selfish Gene," which very provocatively represents the human being as just a gene's way of producing another gene. This is a kind of fringe interpretation. But things like beauty and altruism can be understood in terms of evolution. Think of the black widow spider, for example. You know why she's a widow, right? Because the male black widow bites the dust in return for the privilege of mating with her. Now, if you take the notion of selfishness naively, this kind of thing would stop. And yet the species has survived. There are a billion examples like this; each presents a challenge for evolutionary theory; and there are very good arguments, WITHIN THE FRAMEWORK OF EVOLUTION, for why such behavior takes place. This is why it is a theory, not a belief. It can be tested, by examples like this. Similarly with the Schrodinger cat paradox. Schrodinger was trying to show that quantum mechanics could not be a complete description of nature. Nobody really believes that the cat is in a state of limbo until we open the vault and observe it. A few crackpot philosophers may try to build theories like this, but this is not what "science" is trying to foist upon us. It's just another puzzle. Incidentally, your description of the paradox is very good. Finally, a few words on your opening objection, that we should be outraged at the suggestion that we can be described materialistically. We really don't know what matter is, so we don't know what the implications of materialism are. For a long time, everyone believed that matter behaved deterministically, a la Newton. Now we find that that's not correct; there is an irreducible randomness in nature. But the fact that Newton's laws worked for so long should cause us to look at quantum mechanics, and especially its philosophical implications, with some skepticism. In another 100 years maybe a new theory will come along that suggests something entirely different. You already note how quantum mechanics seems to be suggesting a more holistic approach towards matter, which is more in keeping with your intuitions about how human beings should be described. Perhaps a future mechanics will be even better, in terms of bringing about a reconciliation of materialism with what we feel intuitively to be true about ourselves -- that we have free will, dignity, and so forth. Perhaps we needn't invoke any kind of mystic connection with other worlds in order to reconcile science to our human natures; we need only recognize that so far as science as concerned right now, we see through a glass darkly. Well, I could go on, but my time is running out, and I decided that I would not write more than I could type in one call. Thanks for a very well done and thought provoking stack; to others, I highly recommend it. Msg. #19651 in **General news** Posted on 09/18/88 at 14:16:03 To: DROP KICK From: BRIAN THOMAS Subject: Reply To 'ResponseWare' Thanks again for your splendid critique of Passing Notes.(#19541-2) First, you're right, I do muddy the distinctions between science as it is practiced, and as it is perceived by philosophers, and popularizers, but my argument is about the impact of science on the way we see ourselves. It is about the work of the popularizers as much or more than the pure scientists. It is about the implications of scientific theories, and in the case of evolution, it is the Socio-biologists, like, Richard Dawkins, who try and explain all human activity as if evolution really did fully describe all the processses that created man, who draw out the implications. You dismiss the sociobiologists, and claim that altruism and beauty can be understood within the framework of evolution. I have no objection to an evolution that can do this! You argue that the male black widow acts altruistically as it sacrifices itself to mate with the spouse that will destroy it.(I've been in those kind of relationships myself,and it wasn't altruism that got me there!) Seriously, I think the argument of sociobiogy is more compelling here. The male spider is not sacrificing itself, it is blindly following the sex drive that is coded in its genes. (Whether it makes any sense to describe those genes as if they were the meaning of life is another matter). Let's look at beauty now. When you say it can be understood in terms of evolution I assume you don't mean the parody I wrote, about how mothers that found curved shapes attractive took better care of their infants. You don't just mean that beauty is what we find attractive for biological reasons. WHAT IS BEAUTY? I think Plato took the right approach to that question. Here is a modern adaptation of what he said: Judging by the media, most Americans believe that a person is beautiful, not because of any inner world, but simply because he or she happens to blessed with the right features that had the right beauty products applied to them. However, if pressed, most men would agree that, except for purposes of flattery or seduction, an empty headed girl with perfect features is pretty, or a "fox", but not beautiful. Beauty is still believed to be something that comes from within. The beauty's physical features are in some mysterious way the means of her beauty and not its cause. We see in the human face most clearly that beauty is the shining forth into this world, of another world. Drop Kick, can you explain this in terms of evolutionary processes? Msg. #19693 in **General news** Posted on 09/19/88 at 16:22:00 To: BRIAN THOMAS From: DROP KICK Subject: Reply To 'ResponseWare' Let me start out by naively acting as though I just don't see the problem. It seems to me that the ability to perceive beauty is something that would have an adaptive advantage. Your example seems to prove the point. Obviously, some airhead whose beauty was only skin deep would make a lousy mate. Your kids would be a mess, and the bimbo would probably leave you in a few years anyway. So the fact that you are more attracted to someone in whom you can see deeper aspects of character would increase the likelihood of the propagation of your genes. For the same reason, the development of a sensitivity to character, as opposed to mere appearance, would be selected for. More generally, there is a strong correlation between beauty and truth, though they are equivalent only in a poetic sense. Now the ability to perceive the truth obviously has an adaptive advantage for an organism such as man, who survives by means of his wits. So again, I don't see the problem. Incidentally, I think there are other ways that such things could develop. Perhaps, for example, evolution merely favored the development of intelligence, and that the perception of beauty and the sensitivity to the "higher world of thought" came along as part of the package. I don't think that every particular mental skill necessarily had to have an adaptive function. Sometimes changes come in packages (cf. e.g., the Panda's Thumb, which came in a package with an evolutionary adaptation involving the Panda's Big Toe.)..... Msg. #19694 in **General news** Posted on 09/19/88 at 16:31:04 To: BRIAN THOMAS From: DROP KICK Subject: Reply To 'ResponseWare' Finally, I have a question for you. Do you feel that animals can be completely explained materialistically? This was the position to which Descartes was pushed by his dualism. Animals, in his view, were just automata. But doesn't this go against the grain of what you feel? Anyone who's ever had a dog knows that the dog has at least primitive emotions, such as pride, anger, shame. The dog has loyalty, joy, sadness. St. Francis of Assisi preached to the animals. Now suppose you say yes, the dog has some primitive emotions (or maybe even not so primitive). Do you believe that the dog can be explained in terms of evolution. Is it denigrating to the dog to imagine that all of his activities can be understood in terms of instinct? Msg. #19887 in **General news** Posted on 09/24/88 at 21:08:53 To: DROP KICK From: BRIAN THOMAS Subject: Reply To 'ResponseWare' You asked if I could defend Benji from Pavlov's dog (or Pavlov's dog from Pavlov), but I'm having a hard enough time defending my own freedom from instinct and from habitual and conditioned responses- enough trouble facing that emptiness within and trusting the Lord will make a new man of this wounded beast. And in man, in ourselves, at least we have, as it were, "inside information"; we know which experiences science has words for, and which it doesn't. We don't, or shouldn't start with the terms science hands us and reject all our experience that doesn't fit into those definitions. Msg. #19957 in **General news** Posted on 09/27/88 at 00:32:56 To: BRIAN THOMAS From: DROP KICK Subject: Reply To 'ResponseWare' "We don't, or shouldn't, start with the terms that science hands us, and reject all our experience that doesn't fit into those definitions." Agreed. Or as Emerson once said, "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." Consistency is a powerful tool for thinking, but a minor virtue. End of Messages <=== Do you really want to leave? ===> [Y] Yes, disconnect now [N] No, I just made a mistake (18 minutes left) Command? Y Logged onto Mac Lodge.. 12 minutes. Call back after 24 hrs Did you contribute this visit? Mac Lodge BBS, 818 574-5850: 300/1200 baud: 22 hrs/ 7 days Red Ryder Host 1.4 (C)1987 Freesoft Company/ Scott Watson Thank You for calling Mac Lodge. Running since Dec 1985 +++#P?}fH/v-i}/* NO CARRIER -- part contents for background part 2 ----- text ----- -- part contents for card part 20 ----- text ----- "Responses to Passing Notes" HELP Button Function Close Box - Quits HyperCard RPN - Return to Passing Notes HANG UP - Resets terminal for another call MacLodge 1 and 2 - Selects online session, hanging up before redialing next Settings - Shows speed - current session - font size - font Resume/Pause Remote - When the button is clicked or when the optionKey is pressed, the host computer is instructed to continue/stop sending When the transmission is stopped, the text can be edited ? Mark - Displays this information The commandKey, the arrowKeys, and most menu items are disabled for your protection If you MUST look at or revise the scripts, deprotect "Passing Notes" while one of its cards are visible, return here, type the enterKey and adjust the background script (typing command-option-B to access it) where indicated (click anywhere in this field when done!) -- part contents for background part 5 ----- text ----- ATZ OK ATDT 1-818-RIP-XXXX CONNECT 1200 . !!! HOLD DOWN THE OPTION KEY OR CLICK "PAUSE REMOTE" TO SUSPEND TRANSMISSION !!! !!! SUSPEND TRANSMISSION WITH "PAUSE REMOTE" BEFORE HANGING UP !!! Connection made at 1200 baud. Now Open Only in “Passing Notes”! /\ / \ /\ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ /\ / \ /\ / \ / \ /\ /\ \ / \ /\ /\ /\ / \ / \/ \ /\ /\/\ \ / \/\ / \/ \ /\ /\ \ / \/ \ / \/\ / \/ \ / \/ \/\ / Opened \ / \ / Welcome to the \ / \ / Dec.1985 \/ \/ Mac Lodge BBS! \ / \ by \ / \/ \ Dennis Cosio \ / Located in Beautiful \ \ \ / Arcadia, California \ \ Now Open Only in \ / \ \ “Passing Notes” \ / (818) RIP-XXXX \ \ \/ 8-N-1 \ \ / \ \ / \ \ / Sysop:Blake Chattaway \ \ <======= Bulletin Boards =======> Read messages: N>ew since last call F>orward chronologically R>everse chronologically I>ndividually Command (N,F,R,I)? F Searching... Msg. #12255 in **General news** Posted on 03/05/88 at 09:00:43 To: BRIAN THOMAS From: Steve Grass Subject: YOUR STACK Brian, [...I liked your stack...] I have read a bunch of the stuff in your bibliography, the Dancing Wu Li Masters, In Search of Schroedingers Cat etc. And really love the material, but clearly don't understand it all. My personal beliefs lead me to believe that the discovery that the observer affects the experiment, is probably the crucial concept of the new physics. Especially since it is clear that rather than bring answers as to how and why the universe is, the sciences merely move to new levels of mystery with each advance, and are faced with rapidly increasing puzzles as they "advance". It has been said that everyman has his religion or worships something, whether a god, the God, money, or Porsches or whatever. In a certain sense it can be said that the new physics is touching the fringes of a religious doctrine. Egad... I am getting too philosophical here ! But I would not be surprised to see it ultimately lead back to something said or written 2000 years ago by some obscure goat herder in Tibet or something ! Have you read "Communion" the somewhat dubious book about space men and the kidnappers. The only profound things i read in it were related by children, and I thought the best was one litle boy said the spacemen told him that "The Universe is God's dream." fini. Msg. #20048 in **General news** Posted on 09/29/88 at 20:57:42 To: BRIAN THOMAS From: MICHAEL LOCKARD Subject: RPN #1: Why we waited Brian, I have longed to comment on Passing Notes, but I have hesitated because I am reluctant to share my personal philosophy. This reluctance is no different than the desire of a man to avoid 'sharing' an infectious disease with his friends. My beliefs do not provide succor to the weary soul; they do not comfort the bereaved. This is not the physicians balm. It is the executioner's hood, a black velvet cage. I hold my beliefs, not because I find them pleasing but because I find them likely to be true. Certain parts of Notes, particularly the section on evolution, bothered me because you focused more on what we should want to believe than on what beliefs we can justify. I recently came across a letter I had written over a year ago. In it, I wrote "I want to believe that there is some incredible purpose to our lives. Failing that, I want to find the single unifying element which makes all human life worthwhile. . . .Surely there is some greater purpose served by our heartache and passion than the meager receipts of infirmity and death." You see, Brian, I know what I would like to believe. That, in itself, does not render me capable of believing it. Michael Msg. #20049 in **General news** Posted on 09/29/88 at 20:59:04 To: BRIAN THOMAS From: MICHAEL LOCKARD Subject: RPN #2: 'S---' by any other name Brian Before I begin to discuss the ideas your stack contains, I have a minor editorial comment. I was disappointed to see that you continued, in your revised version of Passing Notes, the use of 's---'. A construction such as this should be confined to Victorian pornography and the more spineless of the mass media. Its use in an intellectual work is inappropriate at best. To believe, or to acquiesce to the belief, that there are acceptable words and unacceptable words is to take a step toward the abyss. Some restraint, in the name of the social lubricant we call courtesy, is required in public forums. And the excessive use of scatological terms is one of the more common offences against language. But Notes is not a public forum and encryption exacerbates rather than alleviates any offense against language. I know this is a minor point, but I was struck by it because it occurs in such a great line. That opening paragraph sets the tone for the remainder of the stack. Michael Msg. #20050 in **General news** Posted on 09/29/88 at 21:00:06 To: BRIAN THOMAS From: MICHAEL LOCKARD Subject: RPN #2: Dance of the Zygotes Brian, In your section on evolution, you do a good job of pointing out that, according to evolutionary theory, the human race is really just a way to perpetuate DNA. I think that Heinlein said it best when he wrote "A zygote is a gamete's way of producing more gametes. This may be the purpose of the universe." You seem to be relying on the reader to have an instinctive reaction to this, as if he or she will automatically say, "Well, that's absurd." As I have said, the truth is not necessarily pleasing so you must go farther than provoking an emotional resistance to a concept. You should try to address the overwhelming evidence (in the fossil record, in genetics, in modern observations of adaptations and extinctions, etc.) in support of evolution. Also, if you reject evolution, then please advance your own theory. By the way, I agree that evolution produces a hollow man. But you must prove that man is not hollow (i.e. prove that our race has some quality which could not be the result of evolution). Michael Msg. #20076 in **General news** Posted on 10/01/88 at 03:41:24 To: MICHAEL LOCKARD From: BRIAN THOMAS Subject: Reply To 'RPN #2: Dance of the Zygotes Thanks for your heartfelt response! 1. Alright, no more of that construction that belongs in "Victorian pornography" and the "spineless mass media". The next "final version" of Passing Notes will spell it all out! 2. Your main criticism of PN is correct and not without merit. I am relying on the reader's "instinctive reaction" (interesting choice of words?) against the idea that we exist to transfer genes, as South African activists rely on the blacks' instinctive disgust with the idea that they exist only to satisfy the economic needs of whites. Bye. End of Messages. <=== Do you really want to leave? ===> [Y] Yes, disconnect now [N] No, I just made a mistake (17 minutes left) Command? Y Logged onto Mac Lodge.. 13 minutes. Call back after 24 hrs Did you contribute this visit? Mac Lodge BBS, 818 574-5850: 300/1200 baud: 22 hrs/ 7 days Red Ryder Host 1.4 (C)1987 Freesoft Company/ Scott Watson Thank You for calling Mac Lodge. Running since Dec 1985 +++#P?}fH/v-i}/* NO CARRIER +++KHZ$g NO CARRIER -- part contents for background part 1 ----- text ----- ATZ OK ATDT 1-818-RIP-XXXX CONNECT 1200 !!! HOLD DOWN THE OPTION KEY OR CLICK "PAUSE REMOTE" TO SUSPEND TRANSMISSION !!! !!! SUSPEND TRANSMISSION WITH "PAUSE REMOTE" BEFORE HANGING UP !!! Connection made at 1200 baud. Now Open Only in “Passing Notes”! /\ / \ /\ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ /\ / \ /\ / \ / \ /\ /\ \ / \ /\ /\ /\ / \ / \/ \ /\ /\/\ \ / \/\ / \/ \ /\ /\ \ / \/ \ / \/\ / \/ \ / \/ \/\ / Opened \ / \ / Welcome to the \ / \ / Dec.1985 \/ \/ Mac Lodge BBS! \ / \ by \ / \/ \ Dennis Cosio \ / Located in Beautiful \ \ \ / Arcadia, California \ \ Now Open Only in \ / \ \ “Passing Notes” \ / (818) RIP-XXXX \ \ \/ 8-N-1 \ \ / \ \ / \ \ / Sysop:Blake Chattaway \ \ <======= Bulletin Boards =======> Read messages: N>ew since last call F>orward chronologically R>everse chronologically I>ndividually Command (N,F,R,I)? F Searching...   Msg. #1247 in **General news** Posted on 8/25/89 at 10:22:25 PM To: BRIAN THOMAS From: GRETCHEN (CompuServe message) Subject: Passing Notes I'm sitting here on a Friday night with wet hair and a lot of laundry, so of course I'm gonna send you the quote I mentioned...did you say you didn't wanna talk about this [anymore]? Too bad! "There are two parts to the human dilemma. One is the belief that the end justifies the means. That push-button philosophy, that deliberate deafness to suffering, has become the monster in the war machine. The other is the betrayal of the human spirit: The assertion of dogma that closes the mind, and turns a nation, a civilisation, into a regiment of ghosts -- obedient ghosts, or tortured ghosts. It is said that science will dehumanize people and turn them into numbers. That is false, tragically false. Look for yourself. This is the concentration camp and crematorium at Auschwitz. This is where people were turned into numbers. Into this pond were flushed the ashes of some four million people. And that was not done by gas. It was done by arrogance. It was done by dogma. It was done by ignorance. When people believe that they have absolute knowledge, with no test in reality, this is how they behave. This is what men do when they aspire to the knowledge of gods. Science is a very human form of knowledge. We are always at the brink of the known, we always feel forward for what is to be hoped. Every judgment in science stands on the edge of error, and is personal. Science is a tribute to what we can know although we are fallible. In the end the words were said by Oliver Cromwell: 'I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken.’ I owe it as a scientist to my friend Leo Szilard, I owe it as a human being to the many members of my family who died at Auschwitz, to stand here by the pond as a survivor and a witness. We have to cure ourselves of the itch for absolute knowledge and power. We have to close the distance between the push-button order and the human act. We have to touch people." -- J. Bronowski, "The Ascent of Man" It's accompanied in the book by pictures of Bronowski standing up to his ankles in the pond, which really is... amazing. Msg. #21437 in **General news** Posted on 8/29/89 at 9:39:43 PM To: Gretchen From: BRIAN THOMAS (CompuServe message) Subject: Passing Notes Thanks for responding with the challenging quote. For a moment I wanted to agree, but then I started to think... Regarding the lines: "Science is a very human form of knowledge. We are always at the brink of the known..." Yes, this expresses the reality of revolutionary scientists like Einstein who dream up a new vision of the universe. But the impact of science can not just be measured in the tested insights of its greatest thinkers; it has shaped our modern consciousness more than any authoritarian dogmas. Scientific materialism has become the dominant mentality of the west. Not the metaphysical angst of Pascal—"The eternal silence of these infinite spaces fills me with dread"— but a complacent and smug sense of the superiority of the "objective," "neutral" scientific outlook. We live not in the age of Faith, nor in the age of Reason, nor in the age of Discovery, but in the age of Information. Information, (as T. Rozak points out in "The Cult of Information") has a safe, non-committal, neutral status. It gives people the illusion that they don’t need ideas, but just the facts. The founders of science had a radical new faith in the existence of little bundles of irreducible particles called matter (which we now know don't exist like that at all) but tried to pretend that they had no idea at all—just a search for the facts. It is often said that, "Nothing is more dangerous than an idea, when it is the only one we have." But when we don’t even know we have an idea, but think we just have information... then we truly have an arrogance, and the illusion of an "absolute knowledge." Msg. #6108 in **General news** Posted on 2/9/90 at 6:29:54 PM To: BRIAN THOMAS From: ISSAC ASIMOV (offline) Subject: Passing Notes No, Issac Asimov did not write to me, but I just received a xerox copy of an essay of his from a reader of Passing Notes. No letter was included, no scribbled notes, no underlined passages, just an article by Asimov called "The Relativity of Wrong" that begins like this: "I received a letter the other day… In the first sentence, the writer told me he was majoring in English literature, but felt he needed to teach me science…" (Did I admit somewhere in these stacks to having majored in English, or is it "just so obvious?") Asimov's main argument is summed up in the "pull quote" at the top of the essay: "People think that scientific theories that aren't perfectly and completely right are totally and equally wrong. In fact, good concepts are gradually refined and extended. Supplanted theories are not so much wrong as incomplete." Later Asimov takes a few more swings at his "English Lit friend," "In short, my English Lit friend, living in a mental world of absolute rights and wrongs, may be imagining that because all theories are wrong, the earth may be thought spherical now, but cubical next century, and a hollow icosahedron the next, and a doughnut shape thereafter." Finally Asimov admits that there is a little, "'quantum weirdness' which brings into serious question the very nature of reality..." before concluding that no matter how these "philosophical conundrums" are resolved... "Virtually all that we know today, however, would remain untouched and, when I say I am glad that I live in a century when the universe is essentially understood, I think I am justified." [That is how the article ends] Naturally, as an old English Lit major I want to go straight to the dictionary definition of "UNIVERSE," and quibble over the meaning of words. That definition begins with these words: UNIVERSE: "the totality of all things that exist; the cosmos; creation. How can we essentially understand everything, when we seriously "question the very nature of reality?" (Or to put it another way: when we essentially understand the universe how serious can a few "philosophical conundrums" like the nature of reality and the meaning of life, be anyway?) Why doesn't Asimov at least qualify his conclusion by saying we essentially understand the structural principles that organize the PHYSICAL universe except as they apply to things that are smaller than an atom? He complains about an English major explaining science, but have we no reason to question a scientist who explains creation itself—who explains essentially everything with a few formulas? Finally, let's remember that his article was published in The Skeptical Inquirer. Their biography of Asimov tells us that he "is one of the great explainers of our age," the author of more than 365 books, and that he is a consulting editor of The Skeptical Inquirer and a fellow of their world-wide organization of skeptics. Isn't it nice that the Great Skeptic believes he essentially understands the universe? He's no "Doubting Thomas." Well, YOU WHO ARE READING THIS, now is your time to reply. "Call back," click "Respond" again and leave your response before passing "Passing Notes" on! Or contact me, Brian Thomas, online. My Compuserve ID is # 73057,377. -- part contents for card part 14 ----- text ----- Settings